The DejaNews Approach to Censorship:

Just Declare Posting "Off-Topic"

DejaNews is located at:

 http://www.Dejanews.com

[Editor's note: Dejanews is now called Deja.com, and is located at http://www.deja.com --Aug, 1999]

It presents itself as the world's interface to Usenet--a search engine, an archive system and posting interface. DejaNews calls itself "The Leader in Internet Discussion." This is false advertising.

In fact, DejaNews has taken an active role in silencing political dissent on certain Usenet newsgroups. Case in point: DejaNews revoked the posting privileges of Carol A. Valentine after she posted material concerning the censoring of Canadian holocaust revisionist Ernst Zundel.

DejaNews called the posting "off-topic" for the whitewater NG. But Valentine pointed out that she had followed DejaNews's own rules. Valentine had used the DejaNews Interest Finder and discovered that alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater NG was indeed a group in which "Zundel" was being discussed.

Valentine also showed DejaNews another posting on censorship on the whitewater NG, and a wide variety of non-whitewater topics covered in the NG every day.

To no avail. DejaNews indeed showed that it did NOT want Valentine discussing "Zundel" on alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater, even though the forum was perfectly suitable according to DejaNews's own standards.

Here are the highlights of the exchanges.

====

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:07:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Deja News Abuse Staff
To: "Carol A. Valentine"
Subject: Re: Censorship by DejaNews
MIME-Version: 1.0

Greetings,

Actually, the 'B' stands for B my Valentine, and the A-man just stepped up
to the mic and said "Your posting privileges have been revoked".

Happy Halloween,

 B-man

 __________
Deja News
Abuse Staff
Abuse FAQ: http://www.dejanews.com/help/faq.shtml#abuse

On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Carol A. Valentine wrote:

> At 3:35 PM -0600 10/29/98, Deja News Abuse Staff wrote:
> >Greetings,
> >
> >Your posting privileges were revoked because you were posting
>> off-topic. Deja News does not endorse censorship but we do enforce
>> our posting rules, which you were breaking. Your denial of posting
>> privileges has nothing to do with your political agenda. If you feel that
>> you can abide our posting rules
>>(http://www.dejanews.com/info/postrules.shtml) then please email us
> >a letter explaining that you have read and understand our posting terms.
> >When we receive this letter we will file it and reinstate your privileges.
> >
> >Thank you,
> >
> >B-man
> >
>
> Hi, B-man:
>
> Say the "B" in your name doesn't stand for "bullsh*t" by any chance, does it?
>
> You don't seem to be familiar with DejaNews policies. Who do you work for?
>
> Go to:
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/home_if.shtml
>
> It's the DJN Interest Finder. The DejaNews Interest Finder helps DJN
> users find the right forums for discussion of their favorite topics. I
> downloaded a copy:
>
> ====
> [Deja News Toolbar]
>
> Interest Finder
> help
>
> Find Forums
> You can locate the groups where people are talking about
> your favorite topics.
>
>
> ====
>
> See that, Mr. B-man? It says that "You can locate groups where people
> are talking about your favorite topics."
>
> That's what I did. When I ran a search on "Zundel" on the Deja News
> Interest Finder, here is what I found at:
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/query_profile.xp?QRY=Zundel&DBS= 2&defaultOp=AND&ST=IF
>
> ===
>
> [Deja News Toolbar]
>
> Interest Finder Search
> Browse Groups Find messages in the archive
> New On Our
> Site!
>
> Forum Finder Results
> help
>
> Forums that contain your search Zundel :
> there are 12 forums that match your search
>
> confidence forum name
> +++++ alt.revisionism
> +++-- alt.politics.nationalism.white
> ++--- alt.politics.white-power
> +---- gnu.emacs.sources
> +---- alt.thebird
> +---- torfree.general
> +---- alt.conspiracy
> +---- alt.religion.scientology
> +---- talk.politics.guns
> +---- alt.genius.bill-palmer
> +---- alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
> +---- misc.legal
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Copyright 1995-98 Deja News, Inc. All rights reserved. Conditions of use.

> ===
>
> So you see, according to your own user prompts,
> alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater is a choice recommended for
> discussion of "Zundel."
>
> BTW, what kind of software do y'all use? With a jillion messages on
> hundreds/tens of hundreds of News Groups, running searches on zillions of
> words each day as you do, you most probably are using military grade
> software.
>
> Your customer interface is military grade.
>
> Do you have a Christian name? Using "B-man" sure gives the impression
> that DeJa News is some kind of an operation, and not a regular business.
>
> Maybe you'll want the "A-man" to step up to the microphone to explain
> everything.
>
>
> Carol A. Valentine
> President, Public Action, Inc.
> Curator, Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum
> http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
>
>
>
> >___________
> >Deja News
> >Abuse Staff
> >Abuse FAQ: http://www.dejanews.com/help/faq.shtml#abuse
> >
> >On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Carol A. Valentine wrote:
> >
> >> When I attempted to post this message (below) through DejaNews,
>>>I found my posting privileges had been revoked. No reason, just
>>> revoked.
> >>
> >> Why?
> >>
> >> I have been posting material concerning the efforts of the holocaust
>>> lobby to censor the Internet, vis a vis the attempt to censor holocaust
> >> revisionist Ernst Zundel in Canada. Many want to shut me up on this
> >> subject--the holocaust lobby wants to beat up Ernst Zundel in private,
> >> without anyone knowing.
> >>
> >> The post below deals with the attempt of one person, Wayne Mann,
>>> to shut me up. Mann posts to the whitewater ng . Mann has gotten
>>> other posters' privileges revoked, too, either by DejaNews or by their
>>> own ISPs.
> >>
> >> DejaNews did not send me an inquiry or allow me to answer any
>>> complaint
> >> received against me before cutting me off. You seem to think to be
>>> accused of something means you are guilty of the offense.
> >>
> >> Yet you bill DejaNews as "leaders of Internet discussion." Your "
>>> guilty as accused" attitude shows that this motto does not reflect
>>> your policies.
> >>
> >> In fact, but shutting me down on the Zundel case, you are aiding the
> >> holocaust lobby in its attempts to censor the Internet. That simple.
> >>
> >> This is not your first offence. Like I said above, I know of others who
> >> have suffered similarly at your hands. Therefore I am posting this notice
> >> far and wide to let others know what your policies ACTUALLY are.
> >>
> >> Let Wayne Mann be known for who he is, and let DejaNews be
>>> known for its policies.
> >>
> >> I expect an apology and a restoration of my posting privileges.
>>> Now, here is the message I tried to post through you.
> >>
> >>
> >> ======
> >>
> >> In article <70qu5d$8aj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> >> sfarney@bigfoot.com wrote:
> >> > In article <363aba98.5295025@news.callamerica.net>,
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 02:11:59 GMT, SkyWriter@Public Action.com wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > QUIT spamming this crap to
> >> > > alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
> >> > > This newsgroup is for CLINTON & WHITEWATER as you well know,
> >> > > so stop spamming here!
> >> >
> >> > Say, Wayne, let's see your complaints about:
> >> >
> >> > > >In article <362BFD5C.675ED576@damnbusiness.com>,
> >> > > > Tim Starr wrote:
> >> >
> >> > and
> >> >
> >> > > >> >In article <3627400C.49A3@gte.com>,
> >> > > >> > Rob Robertson wrote:
> >> >
> >> > and others who have posted to this thread and on this subject.
> >> >
> >> > The essence of both sanity and sincerity is consistency. Are you
> >> > capable of it, "Wayne Mann"?
> >> >
> >> > Say, what's the title of this thread, again?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Did you know we have Censorship on the whitewater board?
>>> The censor is Wayne Mann. Mann acts as
>>> a censor for Israel/Zionism and Israel/Zionist-backed interests.
>>> You might say Waynne Mann is Israel's
> >> butt boy--or should I say butt-Mann? on the whitewater group.
> >>
> >> When posts are perceived by Mann to be hostile to Israeli/Zionist
> >> interests, the butt-Mann complains to the poster's ISP, and/or to
>>> DejaNews.
> >> He has gotten several posters turfed off their ISPs or Deja News for net
> >> abuse/spamming.
> >>
> >> But when a critic of the holocaust lobby's censorship efforts speaks up,
> >> Mann screams:
> >>
> >> > > This newsgroup is for CLINTON & WHITEWATER as you
> >> > > well know,
> >> > > so stop spamming here!
> >>
> >>
> >> But look at the whitewater archives, or even its current postings, and you
> >> will see all kinds of non-Clinton subjects handled at length, without a
> >> word or howl from Mann. Some are WRITTEN by Mann.
> >>
> >> 1. Our first posting is from Mann himself--it is about censorship, but
> >> note it is NOT about holocaust-lobby censorship. And there is not a word
> >> about Clinton or Whitewater in the whole posting.
> >>
> >> You may also note that the heros who are fighting censorship have Jewish
> >> names . . . .Meanwhile if I talk about censorship from the holocaust
> >> lobby, Mann screams to shut me up. Is this racist, or what?
> >>
> >> ======The butt-Mann's censorship post (no Clinton mention) =======
> >>
> >> Subject: *****THE SHADOWY UNIVERSITY
> >> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:03:48 GMT
> >> From: tpd@callamerica.net NOSPAM (wayne mann)
> >> Reply-To: tpd@callamerica.net
> >> Organization: GST Telecom, San Luis Obispo, CA, US
> >> Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
> >>
> >> THE SHADOWY UNIVERSITY
> >> NYP
> >>
> >>
> >> When you were in college, you probably
> >> heard a professor tell you - with an air of
> >> righteous superiority, no doubt - that the
> >> purpose of the First Amendment's guarantee
> >> of free speech is to protect "not popular
> >> speech, but unpopular speech."
> >>
> >> The question that was never asked, however,
> >> was: "Unpopular with whom?"
> >>
> >> Certainly not with the college professors. For
> >> as Alan Charles Kors and Harvey A.
> >> Silverglate demonstrate in their excellent new
> >> book, "The Shadow University: The Betrayal
> >> of Liberty on America's Campuses,"
> >> academics don't have much hesitation about
> >> suppressing speech unpopular in trendy
> >> liberal circles.
> >>
> >> Kors, a history professor at the University of
> >> Pennsylvania, and Silverglate, a
> >> criminal-defense lawyer, are exceptionally
> >> well-positioned to detail the war on free
> >> thought that is being conducted at the
> >> American university in the name of
> >> "diversity," "tolerance" and
> >> "multiculturalism."
> >>
> >> Kors' uneasiness about the spreading regime
> >> of thought control at his own campus was
> >> crystallized in 1993 with the nationally
> >> publicized "water buffalo" incident. On Jan.
> >> 15 of that year, Penn freshman Eden
> >> Jacobowitz was trying to write a term paper
> >> when a noisy group of sorority sisters began
> >> partying underneath his dorm window.
> >>
> >> Annoyed, Jacobowitz threw open the
> >> window and shouted, "Shut up, you water
> >> buffalo!" Since the party-goers were black,
> >> Jacobowitz found himself brought up on
> >> academic charges of racial harassment. He
> >> faced expulsion, in spite of the fact that no
> >> one could show how the term "water
> >> buffalo" (an Asian animal) was racist.
> >> Indeed, the ep-ithet was a direct translation
> >> of "behema," a word in Jacobowitz's native
> >> Hebrew, and used loosely to refer to
> >> someone obnoxious or ungainly.
> >>
> >> After a Kafkaesque series of hearings, and a
> >> firestorm of publicity, Penn backed down
> >> and Jacobowitz was cleared. But the sort of
> >> "speech codes" and the star-chamber
> >> university "courts" that ensnared Jacobowitz
> >> have become part of the university scene all
> >> across America.
> >>
> >> At CUNY, for example, "sexual harassment
> >> is not defined by intentions, but by impact on
> >> the subject." (In other words, the subject is
> >> guilty if the accuser believes him guilty.)
> >> Syracuse University outlaws "leering, ogling
> >> ... sexual innuendoes, ^and_ sexually
> >> derogatory jokes." The University of
> >> Connecticut bans "treating people differently
> >> solely because they are in some way different
> >> from the majority ..."
> >>
> >> The right to speak freely, once thought to be
> >> more important at universities than in the
> >> wider society because of the need for free
> >> inquiry, has all too often been trumped by
> >> the right not to be offended. Since what
> >> happens at the university is frequently a
> >> harbinger of what happens in the wider
> >> society, however, the unchecked growth of
> >> this trend is worrisome in the extreme.
> >>
> >> "Universities have become the enemy of a
> >> free society," Kors and Silverglate conclude,
> >> "and it is time for the citizens of that society
> >> to recognize this scandal of enormous
> >> proportions and hold these institutions to
> >> account." Maybe parents should insist that
> >> those who run their teen-agers' schools open
> >> their minds before the parents open their
> >> checkbooks.
> >>
> >>
> >> \\/ayne //\ann
> >>
> >>
> >> 10th Amendment
> >>
> >> The powers not delegated to the United States by the
> >> Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
> >> reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
> >>
> >> ===== End butt-Mann's post on non-holocuast-lobby censorship ====
> >>
> >> 2. The subject of this next post is an Excerpt from _This Way For the Gas,
> >> Ladies and Gentlemen_, by Tadeusz Borowski, Polish writer and
> >> concentration camp survivor. Note that is has NO MENTION of Clinton or
> >> Whitewater, but that it appears to affirm the classic story of 'THE"
> >> holocaust. Mann does not object.
> >>
> >> ==== Begin post of excerpt from book by camp survivor ======
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: none
> >> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:46:04 -0400
> >> From: Rob Robertson
> >> Organization: GTE Laboratories Incorporated
> >> Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology, talk.politics.guns, alt.current
> >> events.clinton.whitewater
> >>
> >> sfarney@bigfoot.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Earnest Zundel has committed no further crime against "the Jews" than
> >> > to publish historical material that shows their precious Holocaust is
> >> > a fraud.
> >>
> >> "Attention! Out, and take your luggage with you! Take out everything.
> >> Pile all your stuff near the exits. Yes, your coats too. It is summer.
> >> March to the left. Understand?
> >>
> >> Sir, what's going to happen to us?' They jump from the train on to
> >> the gravel, anxious, worn-out.
> >>
> >> 'Where are you people from.'
> >>
> >> 'Sosnowiec-Bedzin. Sir, what's going to happen to us?'
> >>
> >> They repeat the question stubbornly, gazing into our tired eyes.
> >>
> >> 'I don't know, I don't understand Polish.'
> >>
> >> It is the camp law: people going to their death must be deceived
> >> to the very end. This is the only permissible form of charity.
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> The heaps grow. Suitcases, bundles, blankets, coats, handbags that
> >> open as they fall, spilling coins, gold, watches; mountains of bread
> >> pile up at the exits, heaps of marmalade, jams, masses of meat,
> >> sausages; sugar spills on the gravel. Trucks, loaded with people,
> >> start up with a deafening roar and drive off amidst the wailing
> >> and screaming of the women separated from their children and the
> >> stupified silence of the men left behind. They are the ones who had
> >> been ordered to step to the right - the healthy and the young who
> >> will go to the camp. In the end, they too will not escape death,
> >> but first they must work.
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> Near by stands a young, cleanshaven 'gentleman', an SS officer with
> >> a notebook in his hand. For each departing truck he enters a mark;
> >> sixteen gone means one thousand people, more or less. The gentleman
> >> is calm, precise. No truck can leave without a signal from him, or
> >> a mark in his notebook: *Ordnung muss sein*. The marks swell into
> >> the thousands, the thousands into whole transports, which afterwards
> >> we shall simply call 'from Salonica', 'from Strasbourg', 'from
> >> Rotterdam'. This one will be called 'Sosnowiec-Bedzin'. The new
> >> prisoners from Sosnowiec-Bedzin will receive numbers 131-2 thousand,
> >> of course, though afterwards we shall simply say 131-2, for short.
> >>
> >> The transports swell into weeks, months, years. When the war is
> >> over, they will count up the marks in their notebooks - all four
> >> and a half million of them. The bloodiest battle of the war, the
> >> greatest victory of the strong, united Germany. *Ein Reich, ein
> >> Volk, ein Fuhrer* - and four crematoria.
> >>
> >> (Excerpt from _This Way For the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen_, by
> >> Tadeusz Borowski, Polish writer and concentration camp survivor.)
> >>
> >> > Such is "hate speech" defined in the land of love and plenty.
> >> >
> >> > --Slade
> >> >
> >> > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==- - ------
> >> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> >>
> >> _
> >> Rob Robertson
> >>
> >> ====== End excerpt from camp survivor story ======
> >>
> >> 3. In this posting, Tim Starr takes the classic line on "THE" Holocuast.
> >> Mann does NOT object, even though this posting contains no mention of
> >> Clinton or Whitewater:
> >>
> >> ====== Begin Tim Starr posting ======
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: none
> >> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:02:52 -0700
> >> From: Tim Starr
> >> Organization Sirius Connections
> >> Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology, talk.politics.guns, alt.current
> >> events.clinton.whitewater
> >>
> >> SkyWriter@Public-Action.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> >In article <3627400C.49A3@gte.com>,
> >> > Rob Robertson wrote:
> >> >> sfarney@bigfoot.com wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>Earnest Zundel has committed no further crime against "the Jews" than
> >> >>>to publish historical material that shows their precious Holocaust is
> >> >>>a fraud.
> >> >>
> >> >>"Attention! Out, and take your luggage with you! Take out everything.
> >> >>Pile all your stuff near the exits. Yes, your coats too. It is summer.
> >> >>March to the left. Understand?
> >> >>
> >> >>Sir, what's going to happen to us?' They jump from the train on to
> >> >>the gravel, anxious, worn-out.
> >> >>
> >> >>'Where are you people from.'
> >> >>
> >> >>'Sosnowiec-Bedzin. Sir, what's going to happen to us?'
> >> >>
> >> >>They repeat the question stubbornly, gazing into our tired eyes.
> >> >>'I don't know, I don't understand Polish.'
> >> >>
> >> >>It is the camp law: people going to their death must be deceived
> >> >>to the very end. This is the only permissible form of charity.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >This is another weak point of the story/stories of "THE Holocaust." >The
> >> >Holocaust lobby tells us that Hitler spoke openly of his plans to
> >> >exterminate the "Jews" as a race, using the German word "ausrotten" in
> >> >public speeches. We are told the word "ausrotten" meant "kill/murder."
> >>
> >> No, it means "exterminate." What representative of the alleged
> >> "Holocaust lobby" says it means "kill/murder"? I know some native
> >> German speakers who'd like to correct their misunderstanding.
> >>
> >> >Yet at the same time we are required to believe the Jews who were
> >> >living in Germany, listening to Hitler saying "ausrotten" had not the
> >> >foggiest clue about his plans for them.
> >>
> >> Wrong again. Most of the Jews who were in Germany when Hitler took
> >> power in 1932 emigrated by the time the Final Solution began ten years
> >> later. They knew what he meant, took heed, & fled to anywhere that
> >> would take them. Most of the victims of the Holocaust weren't from
> >> Germany. Most of the Jews mass-murdered by Hitler were from Poland.
> >> The rest were from the rest of the countries occupied by the Third
> >> Reich, such as France.
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> >Here we have another problem. On one hand the holocaust lobby claims
> >> >the camps were extermination camps. On the other hand, they claim the
> >> >camps were slave labor camps. Which is it? Why would owners of
> >> >slaves--valuable capital assets- -want to rid themselves of their
> >> >assets?
> >>
> >> The Gulag Archipelago consisted of slave labor camps, too, but that
> >> didn't stop Stalin from working millions to death in them. Most of
> >> the Khmer Rouge's victims were worked to death, too. Many slaves
> >> didn't survive the trans-Atlantic crossing from Africa to the Americas,
> >> either. The fact that slaves may be valuable for their labor doesn't
> >> preclude the possibility of their owners working them to death.
> >>
> >> The goal of the Final Solution was the extermination of all the Jews
> >> the Nazis could get their hands on. Working them to death was one of
> >> the means to that end.
> >>
> >> >There is no reason for tattooing numbers on people's arms if one plans
> >> >to exterminate them.
> >>
> >> Yes there, just as there's a reason for branding cattle if one plans
> >> to transport them to the slaughterhouse.
> >>
> >> >Tattooing numbers suggests the Germans wanted to keep track of the
> >> >camp inmates over a long period of time.
> >>
> >> No, just long enough to ensure that they can be worked to death,
> >> shot, gassed, or otherwise disposed of according to plan. Or caught
> >> if they managed to escape.
> >>
> >> Tim Starr
> >>
> >> ======= End Tim Starr posting ======
> >>
> >> 4. In this item, we have no mention of Clinton or whitewater either, but
> >> Mann does not object:
> >>
> >> ===== begin posting on the butt-Mann and LuLu ======
> >>
> >> Subject: Rumours
> >> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:20:40 -0700 (PDT)
> >> From: sean22@webtv.net
> >> Organization: WebTV Subscriber
> >> Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
> >>
> >> I think I have heard that:
> >>
> >> Roselles and Darryl Grier are the SAME PERSON
> >>
> >> LuLu has a MASSIVE CRUSH on Wayne Mann
> >>
> >> john789 and Voltai are BITTER ENEMIES
> >>
> >> sean22 is HANDSOME, INTELLIGENT and A HECK OF A NICE GUY(this is no
> >> rumour)
> >>
> >> Anyone else think that they have heard the above?
> >>
> >> ====== End posting on the butt-Mann and LuLu ======
> >>
> >> 5. Here is a posting concerning Germany and National Socialism. No
> >> mention of Clinton or whitewater. The butt-Mann does NOT object to this
> >> one, however.
> >>
> >> ===== Begin excerpt on German and National Socialism ======
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: Gingrich's "Final Solution"
> >> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:37:17 GMT
> >> From: bill.kasper@usa.remove-this.net (Bill Kasper)
> >> Reply-To: bill.kasper@usa.junkshield.net
> >> Organization: org.asm
> >> Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
> >>
> >> Rob Robertson got himself on a list, along side me, by
> >>saying:
> >>
> >> = They'll just pass a law compelling you to believe HARDER,... and of
> >> =course, by the time it becomes absolutely impossible for even the Erbs
> >> =of the world to deny the obvious, it will be *beyond* 'too late',...
> >> =
> >> = "There are no innocents in Germany. We have not yet met a single
> >> = German who for political reasons had refused marriage, children,
> >> = family support, reductions of taxes or paid vacations only because
> >> = National Socialism had made them possible. On the contrary, they
> >> = grew fat and stout under the properity of National Socialism.
> >> = They felt no pangs of conscience at the "Aryanization" of Jewish
> >> = businesses. They had their full share in the prosperity. And they
> >> = shouted "Hurrah" to our victories.... There were, it is true,
> >> = lamblike innocents who did not want to declare war upon any country
> >> = and who did for the German war effort only as much as they had to.
> >> = But even these did not object to making money from the war or from
> >> = National Socialism. They liked to ride in their new cars on our
> >> = highways and to travel on our "Strength through Joy" excursions.
> >> = Nobody, after all, has preferred a democratic death to a National
> >> = Socialist life."
> >>
> >>
> >> There is nothing new under the Sun.
> >> Including ignorance of the fact that there is nothing new under the
> >> Sun...
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -
> >> Bill Kasper,VR-WC->,SIGINT
> >> Ruination Observation Detail
> >>
> >>
> >> "A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a
> >> second; that second, for a third; and so on, till the bulk of the society
> >> is reduced to be mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left
> >> but for sinning and suffering." -- Thomas Jefferson
> >>
> >>
> >> ===== End posting on Germany and National Socialism ======
> >>
> >> A casual glance at the whitewater board today also revealed these postings
> >> that have NOTHING to do with Clinton and Whitewater. Mann posted no
> >> objections:
> >>
> >> 6. --Kill Them All Now! (Subject:
> >> Lawyers)
> >>
> >> 7. Everytime I Post, it is
> >> deeted/
> >>
> >> 8. How about this one? No mention of Clinton or Whitewater, and no posted
> >> objection by Mann.
> >>
> >> ====== Begin posting about rednecks ======
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: "100,000 additional teachers?"->> REDNECK
> >> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 02:43:40 GMT
> >> From: bill.kasper@deletetheobvioususa.net (Bill Kasper)
> >> Organization: Customer of Telecom Internet Services
> >> Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
> >>
> >> On 15 Oct 1998 02:22:05 GMT (just before the Impeachment),
> >>jared476@aol...com
> >> (Jared476) informed us all thusly:
> >>
> >> =>From: glc1173@aol.com (GLC1173)
> >> =
> >> =<< Gibberish SNIPPED >>
> >> =
> >> =>Here in North Carolina,
> >> =
> >> =I always figured you were a redneck....
> >> =
> >> = Are most of you wacko's who post here from the south??
> >>
> >>
> >> So where are you from, you big pure Aryan superman, you?
> >>
> >> Don't tell me. NYC, right? Or maybe east LA?
> >> ---------------------------------------------
> >> Bill Kasper
> >> SIGINT, VR-WC->
> >>
> >> "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility
> >> against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - T. Jefferson
> >>
> >> ======= End posting about rednecks =====
> >>
> >> 9. Or how about his one, posting by Mann himself? No mention of Clinton
> >> or whitewater, either.
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: *****Disarm the BATF
> >> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:45:59 GMT
> >> From: tpd@callamerica.net NOSPAM (wayne mann)
> >> Reply-To: tpd@callamerica.net
> >> Organization: GST Telecom, San Luis Obispo, CA, US
> >> Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
> >>
> >> ======
> >>
> >> Now, to re-iterate: The holocaust lobby is trying to pull off the most
> >> outrageous censorship attempt on holocaust revisionist Ernst Zundel.
> >>
> >> Now, Mr.butt-Mann, listen up again while I tell the readers the truth about
> >> the holocaust lobby and censorship.
> >>
> >> The holocaust's lobby attempt at censoring the Internet revolves around a
> >> German-born resident of Canada, Ernst Zundel. Much of Ernst Zundel's
> >> research and thoughts on the subject can be found at:
> >>
> >> http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/
> >>
> >> Briefly: The holocaust lobby has tried to shut Zundel up for years, but
> >>their
> >> efforts have been rebuffed by the courts in Canada. Now another tack is
> >> being tried. A complaint against Zundel was lodged before the Canadian
> >> Human Rights Commission, which has effective jurisdiction over "hate
> >> speech" via telephone wires. The charge is that Zundel engages in hate
> >> speech over telephone wires, and that the Internet is like a telephone . .
> >> . So therefore the CHRC has jurisdiction over Zundel's use of the Internet.
> >>
> >> What is the evidence that Zundel engages in hate speech? According to a
> >> Mr. Goldberg of the CHRC, Zundel denies the holocaust, so, ipso facto,
> >> Zundel engages in hate speech.
> >>
> >> See how that works?
> >>
> >> Zundel does say that the Holocaust story is untrue--Hitler and the German
> >> government did not have a top-down, bureaucratic plan to exterminate the
> >> Jews as a race. Now how could that statement possibly be construed as "hate
> >> speech"? The question is, what evidence is there Zundel's statement is true?
> >> Or is Zundel making unfounded statements?
> >>
> >> But the CHRC has ruled that the truth of Zundel's statement's have no
> >>bearing
> >> on the charges against him! Yes, the CHRC says that, in Zundel's case,
> >>truth
> >> is no defense!

See:
> >>
> >> http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/misc/attention.html
> >>
> >> === excerpt ====
> >>
> >> Breaking News: Shocking ruling by the Canadian Human
> >> Rights Tribunal!
> >>
> >> On May 25, 1998, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal rendered a written
> >> decision that "Truth is not a defense" - in other words, that the truth of
> >> any material on the Zundelsite is ***irrelevant*** to CHRC proceedings!
> >>
> >> The Canadian Human Rights Commission lawyers and the intervenors's lawyers
> >> were on their feet and objected over 30 times when they thought truth was
> >> becoming an issue in the cross-examination of Dr. Schweitzer.
> >>
> >> Says Ernst Zundel: "This leaves us in a very difficult position.
> >>Frankly, what
> >> is there to do or say if truth is not relevant - or even ***forbidden*** to
> >> raise it in one's defense? Truth in history is thus outlawed?"
> >>
> >> Here is a telling excerpt from this nine-page CHRT ruling:
> >>
> >> ". . . consistent with a focus on effect rather than intent, it is the
> >>effect
> >> of the message on the recipient, and ultimately on the person or group
> >> vilified, that is the focus of the analysis. The truth in some absolute
> >>sense
> >> really plays no role. Rather, it is the social context in which the message
> >> is delivered and heard which will determine the effect that the
> >>communication
> >> will have on the listener. It is not the truth or falsity per se that will
> >> evoke the emotion but rather how it is understood by the recipient. The
> >> objective truth of the statement is ultimately of no consequence if the
> >> subjective interpretation, by virtue of tone, social context and medium is
> >> one which 'arouses unusually strong and deep-felt emotions of detestation,
> >> calumny and vilification'. Therefore, in our view, whether the message is
> >> true or not is immaterial. Whether it is perceived to be true or
> >>credible may
> >> very well add to its impact, but its actual basis in truth is outside the
> >> scope of this inquiry."
> >>
> >> === end excerpt =====
> >>
> >> So the Canadian Human Rights Commission's charge against Zundel is a set up,
> >> a lynching party.  The plan is convict Zundel in this kangaroo court and
> >> issue an injunction against his using the telephone; when he defies the
> >> injunction, he will be labeled a criminal, and deported to Germany, where he
> >> will be immediately imprisoned.  Why?  In Germany, "denying the
> >>holocaust" is
> >> a crime, and Zundel has already been convicted.
> >>
> >> After Zundel goes, it will be only a question of widening the net.  Just a
> >> question of expanding what is defined as "hate speech." I can easily see how
> >> the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum could be labeled hate speech
> >>against the
> >> US military, for example--can't you?
> >>
> >> I am sure that as a libertarian you are just as alarmed at this
> >>situation as I
> >> am.  We've had our differences in the past, Tim, but I think we are both big
> >> enough to put those aside and work together on this one.
> >>
> >> Any ideas on how we can cooperate in a joint effort to alert the Internet
> >> community to this outrageous attempt to silence Internet free speech?
> >>
> >> By the way, the cyber space watchdogs, including,
> >>
> >> Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
> >> http://www.epic.org/
> >>
> >> Electronic Frontier Foundation ("Blue Ribbon" campaign)
> >> http://www.eff.org/
> >>
> >> Global Internet Liberty Campaign
> >> http://www.gilc.org/speech/
> >>
> >> Internet Privacy Coalition
> >> http://www.privacy.org/ipc/
> >>
> >> Privacy International
> >> http://www.privacy..org/pi/
> >>
> >> are hiding under the table on this one.  They should be jumping up and down
> >> on the issue, and marshalling public outrage.  Instead--the sound of
> >> silence.
> >>
> >> ===
> >> Carol A. Valentine
> >> President, Public Action, Inc.
> >>
> >> Have you seen the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum?
> >> See what they did to the mothers and children--
> >> http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter
> >>"In an age of  universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
>>>   --attr. George Orwell